Comments on: Boy bands – how to understand the site definition/template debate http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/ After much frustration, it seems DEFAULT is the way to go... Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:45:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: CleverWorkarounds » Why I’ve been quiet… http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-32971 CleverWorkarounds » Why I’ve been quiet… Mon, 07 Jun 2010 10:07:21 +0000 http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/#comment-32971 [...] but won’t have you nodding off on page 2. If you liked my posts where I use odd metaphors like boy bands to explain SharePoint site collections, the Simpsons to explain InfoPath or death metal to explain records versus collaborative document [...] [...] but won’t have you nodding off on page 2. If you liked my posts where I use odd metaphors like boy bands to explain SharePoint site collections, the Simpsons to explain InfoPath or death metal to explain records versus collaborative document [...]

]]> By: Denial http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-19890 Denial Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:31:47 +0000 http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/#comment-19890 First of all. Thanks very much for your useful post. I just came across your blog and wanted to drop you a note telling you how impressed I was with the information you have posted here. Please let me introduce you some info related to this post and I hope that it is useful for community. There is a good SharePoint resource site, Have alook http://www.how2sharepoint.com/ http://www.sharepoint2003.com/ http://sharepointbank.com/ Thanks again Rahul First of all. Thanks very much for your useful post.

I just came across your blog and wanted to drop you a note telling you how impressed I was with the

information you have posted here.

Please let me introduce you some info related to this post and I hope that it is useful for community.

There is a good SharePoint resource site, Have alook

http://www.how2sharepoint.com/

http://www.sharepoint2003.com/

http://sharepointbank.com/

Thanks again
Rahul

]]> By: MOSSuMS http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-14355 MOSSuMS Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:09:25 +0000 http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/#comment-14355 Custom Site Definitions: 2010 - another reason not to. SharePoint Joel's international man of mystery presentation on 2010 readyness covers the SP2 tool, stsadm –o preupgradecheck. One of the things this will tell you, is you need to have an Upgrade Definition File in place to upgrade your Custom Site Definitions (KB article 954761, not yet published). Just like the last major SharePoint version udgrade, do you have a UDF? Custom Site Definitions: 2010 – another reason not to.

SharePoint Joel’s international man of mystery presentation on 2010 readyness covers the SP2 tool, stsadm –o preupgradecheck.

One of the things this will tell you, is you need to have an Upgrade Definition File in place to upgrade your Custom Site Definitions (KB article 954761, not yet published).

Just like the last major SharePoint version udgrade, do you have a UDF?

]]> By: mel http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-12707 mel Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:12:00 +0000 http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/#comment-12707 in the first picture at the top what was their name again?? im lookin 4 a song of theirs an i cant remember the name of their band please help cos its buggin the hell outta me in the first picture at the top what was their name again?? im lookin 4 a song of theirs an i cant remember the name of their band please help cos its buggin the hell outta me

]]> By: Chris OConnor http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-6568 Chris OConnor Thu, 05 Mar 2009 21:27:21 +0000 http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/#comment-6568 Great article - I'm someone who loves SharePoint - and heavy metal - this had a few laughs for me ! Nice one. :-) Great article – I’m someone who loves SharePoint – and heavy metal – this had a few laughs for me !
Nice one. :-)

]]> By: Sezai Komur http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-6285 Sezai Komur Fri, 27 Feb 2009 01:32:43 +0000 http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/#comment-6285 Yeah I guess I should think about long term ROI more. My usual focus is on getting stuff out the door, keeping people happy today. Also - don't get me wrong, Site Definitions shouldn't be used all the time. If possible always try and implement customisations as Features on the regular ootb site definitions. I haven't developed a custom site definition this year - but if I am asked to implement... say a large custom WCM solution I will always start with a custom site def. For regular Intranet portals used for collab and doc management I think site definitions are rarely needed. Also - you can implement work in a site definition OR a feature - in cases like that always go with a Feature as its more flexible into the future. Still I think site definitions have their use and their place and are one of the tools in your SharePoint toolbelt you can call upon in times of need. As for wicked problems - yeah I've been involved in some huge custom projects involving custom site definitions and being locked in a forever spiraling wicked problems vortex resulting in a lot of wasted time and customers who are never happy, so there is some merit to poo pooing custom site definitions. Still I think they have their use at times. Yeah I guess I should think about long term ROI more. My usual focus is on getting stuff out the door, keeping people happy today.

Also – don’t get me wrong, Site Definitions shouldn’t be used all the time. If possible always try and implement customisations as Features on the regular ootb site definitions. I haven’t developed a custom site definition this year – but if I am asked to implement… say a large custom WCM solution I will always start with a custom site def. For regular Intranet portals used for collab and doc management I think site definitions are rarely needed. Also – you can implement work in a site definition OR a feature – in cases like that always go with a Feature as its more flexible into the future. Still I think site definitions have their use and their place and are one of the tools in your SharePoint toolbelt you can call upon in times of need.

As for wicked problems – yeah I’ve been involved in some huge custom projects involving custom site definitions and being locked in a forever spiraling wicked problems vortex resulting in a lot of wasted time and customers who are never happy, so there is some merit to poo pooing custom site definitions. Still I think they have their use at times.

]]> By: Jeremy Thake http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-6284 Jeremy Thake Fri, 27 Feb 2009 00:34:11 +0000 http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/#comment-6284 Sezai, I also think you may want to read this post too: http://wss.made4the.net/archive/2009/02/15/the-sharepoint-implementation-market-needs-to-grow-up.aspx :-) We should be educating the clients on ROI long-term, not just giving into their demands of getting stuff out the door. Sezai, I also think you may want to read this post too: http://wss.made4the.net/archive/2009/02/15/the-sharepoint-implementation-market-needs-to-grow-up.aspx
:-)
We should be educating the clients on ROI long-term, not just giving into their demands of getting stuff out the door.

]]> By: admin http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-6280 admin Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:06:33 +0000 http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/#comment-6280 Sezai Although I was kidding around, your reply is actually more suited to the "one Best Practice..." series. Almost by definition, if a client wants something "wacky", you can be guaranteed by next week that they will either change their mind as they learn something new, or get even wackier as they think about their problem more. Additionally, you have different people going through that same cyclical exercise and so even within a group, often there is disagreement and lack of clarity between what you will deliver and what *they think* you will deliver. "The whole “preserve the perfect upgrade path” stand point I think is highly over rated" and "The last thing SharePoint customisers/developers/architects/whatevers should have to worry about is whether the solution will upgrade to the next version smoothly, it’s a lower priority compared to providing the solution required TODAY." That is essentially an ROI question. If I were cost-justifying a highly customised site definition, I'd add costings for how hard a service pack would be, a restore, how easy things are to move from one place to anothter, etc, as well as upgrading to vnext. Then we account for how long we expect this solution to be suitable for and consider rework and re-engineering costs. Think this can't be done? Well it <a HREF="http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/11/sharepoint-roi-slide-deck-and-sample-scenario-worksheet-published/" rel="nofollow">can</a> :-) One of the characteristics of wicked problems is that they can have "waves of repercussions" that can be even more wicked than the problem being solved the first time around. Dangerous stuff - hence why people like at least try and make a pop-rock band, despite a boy-band definition underneath :-) Sezai

Although I was kidding around, your reply is actually more suited to the “one Best Practice…” series. Almost by definition, if a client wants something “wacky”, you can be guaranteed by next week that they will either change their mind as they learn something new, or get even wackier as they think about their problem more. Additionally, you have different people going through that same cyclical exercise and so even within a group, often there is disagreement and lack of clarity between what you will deliver and what *they think* you will deliver.

“The whole “preserve the perfect upgrade path” stand point I think is highly over rated” and “The last thing SharePoint customisers/developers/architects/whatevers should have to worry about is whether the solution will upgrade to the next version smoothly, it’s a lower priority compared to providing the solution required TODAY.”

That is essentially an ROI question. If I were cost-justifying a highly customised site definition, I’d add costings for how hard a service pack would be, a restore, how easy things are to move from one place to anothter, etc, as well as upgrading to vnext. Then we account for how long we expect this solution to be suitable for and consider rework and re-engineering costs. Think this can’t be done? Well it can :-)

One of the characteristics of wicked problems is that they can have “waves of repercussions” that can be even more wicked than the problem being solved the first time around. Dangerous stuff – hence why people like at least try and make a pop-rock band, despite a boy-band definition underneath :-)

]]> By: SharePoint Daily for February 26, 2009 - SharePoint Daily - Bamboo Nation http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-6267 SharePoint Daily for February 26, 2009 - SharePoint Daily - Bamboo Nation Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:36:00 +0000 http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/#comment-6267 [...] Boy Bands - How to Understand the Site Definition/Template Debate (Clever Workarounds)I’ve read a few blogs on site definitions vs site templates and reading some development centric articles, particularly the alternative presented by Raymond, and expanded by Mike and summarised neatly by Chris. Being a part time developer, I found that the explanation were a little…shall we say… geeky and I had to expend far too many brain cells. So to assist the rest of the SharePoint community who are not developers, I am going to attempt to explain the whole sorry debate to you using a more suitable analogy - boy bands. That way you do not have to worry about developer-speak. [...] [...] Boy Bands – How to Understand the Site Definition/Template Debate (Clever Workarounds)I’ve read a few blogs on site definitions vs site templates and reading some development centric articles, particularly the alternative presented by Raymond, and expanded by Mike and summarised neatly by Chris. Being a part time developer, I found that the explanation were a little…shall we say… geeky and I had to expend far too many brain cells. So to assist the rest of the SharePoint community who are not developers, I am going to attempt to explain the whole sorry debate to you using a more suitable analogy – boy bands. That way you do not have to worry about developer-speak. [...]

]]> By: Sezai Komur http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-6266 Sezai Komur Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:08:24 +0000 http://www.cleverworkarounds.com/2009/02/25/boy-bands-how-to-understand-the-site-definitiontemplate-debate/#comment-6266 ... and I thought I understood both sides to this debate, now I am more confused then ever! lol. "you pay for it with future upgrade uncertainty..." is good IMHO, as it means more work for us all in 2010 and beyond ;o} If its gonna be a massive problem in a year or two I don't really care today, I worry about solving todays problems I am faced with. I don't have time to gaze into a crystal ball and speculate that a specific development/design decision is going to result is a mass catastrophe years from now. I can't wait for all these massive, complex and dirty dirty site def upgrade/migrate projects when vnext arrives, if anyone needs help with this come see me in a cupla years. The whole "preserve the perfect upgrade path" stand point I think is highly over rated - the primary focus for people implementing custom SharePoint solutions is to meet the requirements of the customer, and a lot of customers have weird and wacky requirements than can only be met with extensive & complex custom dev that are best implemented as custom site defs. The last thing SharePoint customisers/developers/architects/whatevers should have to worry about is whether the solution will upgrade to the next version smoothly, it's a lower priority compared to providing the solution required TODAY. SharePoint OOTB is simply a demo app, a proof of concept to show manager/cio types what is possible, to get the full power and possibilities available in platform it needs to be extended to fit an organisation, to provide solutions to solve its problems, and sometimes custom site defs are the answer. … and I thought I understood both sides to this debate, now I am more confused then ever! lol.

“you pay for it with future upgrade uncertainty…” is good IMHO, as it means more work for us all in 2010 and beyond ;o} If its gonna be a massive problem in a year or two I don’t really care today, I worry about solving todays problems I am faced with. I don’t have time to gaze into a crystal ball and speculate that a specific development/design decision is going to result is a mass catastrophe years from now.

I can’t wait for all these massive, complex and dirty dirty site def upgrade/migrate projects when vnext arrives, if anyone needs help with this come see me in a cupla years.

The whole “preserve the perfect upgrade path” stand point I think is highly over rated – the primary focus for people implementing custom SharePoint solutions is to meet the requirements of the customer, and a lot of customers have weird and wacky requirements than can only be met with extensive & complex custom dev that are best implemented as custom site defs. The last thing SharePoint customisers/developers/architects/whatevers should have to worry about is whether the solution will upgrade to the next version smoothly, it’s a lower priority compared to providing the solution required TODAY.

SharePoint OOTB is simply a demo app, a proof of concept to show manager/cio types what is possible, to get the full power and possibilities available in platform it needs to be extended to fit an organisation, to provide solutions to solve its problems, and sometimes custom site defs are the answer.

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